2023 Toyota 4Runner

SPEAKER 1: If you've wanted an off-road SUV in America your options have been between a Toyota and a Jeep for, let's say, all of recent history. Take these two for example, the Jeep Wrangler and the Toyota 4Runner, arguably the two most capable offered SUVs you can get for your money. SPEAKER 2: But wait, there's more. And it's this, the all new Land Rover Defender. SPEAKER 1: And in 30 seconds our esteemed British cultural expert, Alistair Weaver, will give us the history of the Land Rover Defender. 30 seconds SPEAKER 3: 30 seconds. SPEAKER 1: Go. SPEAKER 3: Originally sketched on a Welsh beach back in 1947, is Britain's answer to the Jeep. The Defender was the original Land Rover, even if, technically, the Defender name didn't appear until 1983. By the time production ceased in 2016, over two million had been built. Like the original Mini, it is a British icon. The British army goes to war in them. My dad had one. I had one. Her Majesty, the queen-- God bless-- still has one. It is fish and chips in automotive form. SPEAKER 1: Little over 30 seconds, but we'll let it slide. SPEAKER 3: The eloquence is worth it. SPEAKER 2: Well, Thanks for that history lesson. This has some history too, it won World War II. SPEAKER 3: Even if it turned up late. SPEAKER 2: We're going to evaluate the Land Rover Defender to see how it stacks up against these off-road specific SUVs. And, in the end, we should be able to tell you which one is the right fit for you. SPEAKER 1: We'll evaluate the new Defender by comparing it on and off road with these well-established peers. On the freeway we'll consider driveability and comfort. Off the freeway we have a few tests plan to explore the Defender's capabilities and place them in context with the Wrangler and 4Runner. Buckle up, it's going to be a long one. Before we get these cars too dirty, make sure to like, comment, and subscribe, and check the links below. And also visit Edmunds.com/sellmycar to get a cash offer on your-- Is that the elephant in the room? SPEAKER 3: No Carlos, it's a Bronco. The new Defender's priced around $50,000 and, like the Wrangler, is available as either a two or a four-door, called the 90 and 110 respectively. This is, obviously, the four-door, and it's one of the first cars off the boat. It's heavily specified topping out at over $72,000. Now that's a lot of money, but we played around with the online configurator, and we reckon a two-door with all the off-road kit costs around $53,000 in the spec that you'd want. That's about 15% more than the equivalent Wrangler. To be honest, when I first saw it in pictures I thought it looked a bit soft and even cartoonish. Certainly when compared to the very alpha original, but in real life, I think it works a lot better. And some of that's to do with the proportions. It's about the same length as a Wrangler and the 4Runner, but it's wider and taller, and that gives it a real presence. The Defender is deliberately not a retro pastiche of the original, but some of the detailing did make the cut. I love these Safari rear windows, for example. And I think what they've done with the light treatment here at the rear is just terrific. But the most controversial feature of the new Defender is this square. Mark Takahashi actually studied design and worked in design before he does whatever he does now. Mark, What do you think of the square? SPEAKER 2: It's triggering that record scratch in my brain right now. It could have extended top and bottom, been a little thinner, otherwise it's making a strong case for piano black, [? which is ?] something I really hate. SPEAKER 3: I kind of like it. Do you know what's really irritating me? On this side of the car it kind of lines up. On the other side it sort of doesn't, and it's really playing with my OCD. One feature this car does have which I wish it didn't was these rims, these alloys. You can get the Defender with 18 inch steelies, which just look awesome. Overall I do like the look of the new Defender. As I said, he's it's real presence about it. But can you imagine Jeep reinventing the Wrangler to this extent? Honestly, there'd be a march on Detroit. SPEAKER 2: The Jeep Wrangler is known as an off-road weapon, especially in this Rubicon trim which starts around $44,000. We've covered it a ton. We've had one in our long-term fleet, and you can read all about it in the links below. In addition to the tough-looking exterior, this Jeep actually has a lot underneath too. It has a solid front axle and a sway bar that can be disconnected with the touch of a button. You can get it with a V6, a Mild Hybrid V6, a turbo diesel V6, but this one has the turbo four cylinder that's good for 270 horsepower and 295 pound feet of torque. It's all run through an eight speed automatic transmission. On top of that, it has the 33 inch BFGoodrich K02 all-terrain tires that are bigger than the other two. The question is, how does all this off-road hardware affect on-road behavior and comfort? SPEAKER 1: Though capable, the 4Runner has been on sale for a long time. It's old. This generation has been out for, it feels like, over a decade now, but people seem to really like it still. Why? Well, Toyota keeps improving and updating it. The current 4Runner is available in a wide range of options and configurations, from the base level all the way up to the luxury, limited model. You can get it with all wheel drive. You can get it with four-wheel drive. You can get it with a trick system that automatically disconnects the sway bars when you start driving it off-road. This is the 4Runner TRD Pro. If you want to know more about this particular Model you can see my other video on it that we made previously. But, in brief, it's the most expensive and most serious off-road 4Runner you can buy new. And it also kind of serves as an example to 4Runner owners what they can do with their 4Runner in the aftermarket. I like it because it's simple. It's four-wheel drive. It's got upgraded springs and shocks and a little lift kit that's going to give it more wheel travel, more control, and more durability when you're going off-road too. Now, the downside is, again, the age, and that really shows up underneath the hood. You have a four liter V6 that not only has the least amount of power here, but also the worst fuel economy. And you can attribute that to the five speed automatic transmission, which is about as relevant in 2020 as a fax machine, or the periscope app, or the concept of bipartisanship, or your right to personal privacy, or social gathering, or a trebuchet. SPEAKER 2: Carlos! SPEAKER 1: It's old. But it's still sturdy and dependable and trustworthy, and, hey, I kind of like it too. You have to drive to a trail in order to drive on a trail, so let's first cover with each of these do well and not so well on the road while you're commuting. The 4Runner, being an ancient car relative to the other vehicles in this comparison, you would expect it to seem and appear a lot worse on the road than it actually is. Let's start with the highlights, and the first is interior space and cargo space specifically. On paper, interior space actually isn't that great relative to the Jeep and the Defender, but in practice, it doesn't feel cramped at all. I've got plenty leg, head, shoulder room around me. The 4Runner's biggest strength though is the cargo volume, which is the biggest of this comparison. That makes it more of a usable vehicle in terms of daily driving. Yes it's dated, but beyond that, though, the interior remains surprisingly functional. Now even the steering works for what this vehicle is. It still rides on a truck-based construction, and it does steer better than the Wrangler. Now the downsides. First off, I'll say the TRD Sport exhaust that comes on this TRD Pro, I would get rid of that the first thing. It emphasizes probably the worst elements of the V6 noise at normal cruising speed. It sounds great when you're at wide open throttle, but at normal cruising speed it does not sound good. The worst bit though is definitely the 5-speed automatic transmission. The 5-speed automatic really makes itself noticeable when you're accelerating up an on ramp, when you're trying to maintain freeway speeds, even in moderate wind. This transmission really has a tough time maintaining speeds, freeway speeds especially. It is the thing that would hold me back from recommending the 4Runner to somebody, is that transmission. If this had the powertrain from even the Jeep, this would be a much nicer vehicle to drive. And I really think it's just a transmission away from being a tremendous success. In spite of the 4Runner's age and some of the flaws that come with that age, this thing still has a ton of charm that I find it really appealing for reasons that I can't quite explain. There is just a certain charm to the way this drives. It might have to do with the way it looks-- it looks fantastic in this army green and black motif-- but pretty much everybody in our group has found that the 4Runner has a charm in the driving experience that the others lack. I'd go on record and say I'd probably have one if it weren't for that transmission. SPEAKER 2: When it comes to purpose built vehicles, for me, when I'm evaluating them, it's a sliding scale. Like a sports car, on one end you have all out performance, and on the other end you have comfort. The same goes for off-road vehicles. On the spectrum for off-road vehicles, the Wrangler is definitely more hardcore and more focused on off-road performance, where comfort, It's not secondary, but it certainly isn't the priority. A lot of the things that make the Wrangler a great off-roader-- the solid front axle and the recirculating ball steering-- well, that doesn't play so well on the road. Right now we're on a highway and it takes a lot more tending to to keep it within its lane. It's a little lazy. It's kind of got a big dead spot in the middle. But, that's kind of exactly what you want when you're doing some serious off-roading. And there's also the noise. We have this kind of hybrid top with a fabric center, and it's doing a decent job of cutting out a lot of the wind noise. But with these off-road tires, you're hearing a lot of tire howl, but not nearly as much as if you went with some really serious mudder tires. Now, you'd think, right off the bat when you look at the specs for this car, that the four cylinder engine would be kind of a pig, but it's not. And the thing about serious off-roading is it's not so much how much power you have, it's the gearing that you have. This has the goods right off the bat. SPEAKER 3: So let's cut to the chase, comparing how this car drives on road versus the old Defender is a bit like comparing a full burger with the finest Waygu beef. Is not just better than the old Defender, it's also miles better than the Wrangler and the 4Runner. Land Rover has done a great job of creating a vehicle that feels more like a sophisticated SUV than a traditional off-roader. The ride quality is comfortable even on these all-terrain tires. The steering has a wonderful kind of positivity about it. It's easy to place on the road. You don't not get that kind of wandering that you do in the Wrangler. What I would say though, is that it's exceptionally heavy. We take every test vehicle down to our private test track, and we spend a fortune on this every year. We're one of the few publications left in the world that actually bothers to do this. But here's why, Land Rover claims that this vehicle should be around 5,000 pounds. It's actually 5,600 in this specification. Now, that's more than the current Range Rover and more than our heavily specified Ram 1,500 truck. That's insane for a car on a new platform. It's also reflected in the 0 to 60 time. Land Rover claims 5.8 seconds. We did 6.7 seconds, which is still the fastest vehicle here, but even so, it's almost a second slower than the manufacturer claims which has definitely a mark against it. Having said that, it is super refined in here. Land Rover has done a great job with this interior, mixing a sort of utilitarian sheet with some interesting material choices. I particularly like this magnesium bar that runs the length of the fascia and is actually structural. It's a trick that Ford's trying with the new Bronco, too. Did I mentioned Bronco, by the way? It also really works from a practical perspective. There's oodles of storage space in here. And you can also replace this center console bin here with a little jump seat so you can sit three and three in both the 110 and the 90. I think that's really cool. There's also a lot more space overall. It's weird that the wheelbase on this car is pretty much identical to the Wrangler, but there is a lot more room inside. The driver's seat has a lot more rearward travel-- which is great if you're tall like me-- and rear seat occupants just have a lot more head, shoulder, and knee room. If you're going to buy this car as a family vehicle, then that's a huge bonus. There's also some pretty imaginative material choice in here, though we did have some reservations about its durability. This cup holder, for example, is marked up pretty badly already. Interestingly, the Defender also has a longer wheelbase than the Discovery, and I think it's much more roomy inside, and this is going to be a problem for Land Rover. The idea is that the big daddy Range Rover is the luxurious choice. The Discovery is the family versatile alternative. And then Defender is the beat it up, go off-road, alpha male. Except that, in many ways, I think this is much cooler than the Discovery. I think it looks a lot better, and it's got more interior space. Land Rover have got to be really careful they don't just end up stealing sales from themselves. SPEAKER 1: Now that we're done whining about on-road refinement, let's start our off-road evaluation. We have two deceivingly simple tests that are designed to bring out the strengths and weaknesses of each of the SUVs here. To start our off-road analysis we're going to start with a hill climb. Now this hill may not look like much, but the surface is actually really slippery-- it's mostly sand-- and so each one of us are going to try to climb this hill using the fewest amount of electronic controls and advancement and tools that we have available. Now the 4Runner doesn't have much, but I'm going to see what I can do. I'm going to start out by shifting to low gear. I'm in neutral, shift to 4 Low. I'm in 4 Low. Put it in first gear-- I do like the fact that it's just a lever and you move over-- and I'm going to crawl my way up and see what can happen, see how far I can get before I need to start leaning on some of the controls this 4Runner has. We're just beginning to start the climb. All good so far. And I've stopped making progress. All right. So let's try locking the rear diff. A little bit more. Hey, locking the rear diff helped. And, next step. So I'm going to turn on the crawl control. That's only available in 4 Low, but that's basically an off-road cruise control with five different speed settings. Once I turn that on-- I've got it set at the lowest possible speed-- it's kind of like off-road cruise control. My foot is off the gas pedal, it's hovering the brake, and the crawl control is managing the traction of the front tires by selectively applying the brakes, basically doing the job of a front differential-- a locking front differential-- if this had one. And it's actually doing a really good job, even though it doesn't sound that great. Although at this point, with this kind of incline, I would love to have a forward facing camera to see where I'm going once I crest this hill, but I don't, so I just have to, you know, let Jesus take the wheel. And that did it. In order to climb that hill, though , once I crest the top, I'm going to dial up speed a little bit. So that made it, but I had to use every single electronic control the 4Runner has available. So it's nice that you have those tools, but you do have to lean on them. I started out in 4 High-- I started out in 4 Low, I had to lock the rear diff, and then I had to engage the crawl control. It's nice that you have those, and it's nice that it works, I guess is the big takeaway. SPEAKER 2: Carlos made it up the hill but he needed all the bells and whistles to get there. I'm going to try and go as minimal as possible. So I'm going in 4 High. Throw it into manual. So I'm keeping the sway bar connected, I'm not locking anything, and I'm confident I'm going to make it up. It might take a little effort but, I don't think I'm going to have to engage anything else. Well, we'll see. Slow and steady, slow and steady. Baby, Baby hold together. Aw! Nyet! Going 4 Low. That's going to give me all the warnings, that auto park, forward collision, and all that other good stuff is off. Sway bar is still connected. Let's try 4 Low. Come on baby, you can do it. Yeah, Yeah. And I'm just barely breathing into the throttle. Yeah, this is easy-peasy. Tried to crab a little bit but-- Yeah. 4 Low, that's all she wrote, easy-peasy, big blue Jeep-y. Here we go. Ain't no thing. So, not surprising at all, that the Wrangler made it up with only going into 4 Low as opposed to Carlos, which had to use all of his bells and whistles, and crawl control, and everything else. And I had a ton of other tools in my toolbox and I didn't even get to. I didn't have to lock any diffs, I didn't have to disconnect the sway bar. So I had several more levels to go. SPEAKER 3: The key big difference in this car is so much is actually controlled through the electronics and through the screen. So, if we go into 4x4 information here, we've got various different setups. And you've even got a mode here for wade sensing to tell you how much water's underneath-- we'll worry about that later. You've also then got these configurable setups, auto terrain response. So you can actually toggle through mud and ruts, grass, gravel, snow, sand, rock crawl, wade. And then it's actually configurable within the system to allow you to choose things like how you want the differentials to work, how you want the powertrain, steering, traction control. It's pretty clever stuff. I'm just going to leave it in Auto. So, in theory, now the car should do everything for me, but I am going to go back into four-wheel drive. I'm just going to now raise the suspension to give us some ground clearance. So it should give you a notification here that I'm going to off-road height, which it's done. I've got additional information sitting here on my dashboard. We're going to follow what the Wrangler did, which is start off in High and away we go. For Queen and Country. Here we go. Now this weighs a lot more, now that could be a double-edged sword in that it might help me with traction but it also might help me get bogged down. I'll try and keep it rolling, here we go. Here you go. Come on, baby. Come on, baby. Come on. This is still in 4 High this, is pretty impressive. Blimey. We're also on less aggressive tires than either the Wrangler or the 4Runner, and it's just monstering its way to the top. [CHUCKLES] Ding-dong. Hello. The other thing that it's got, when I get to the top here, we've got a little camera that can show me the terrain over the top. So if I get to a top like this, and it looks a little bit dicey, the reality is I can just roll down the other side and I can actually see what I'm doing. Again, really clever stuff. Well that was easy. I think I won that one. Oh, yes. Rule Britannia. Rule Britannia. SPEAKER 1: That should feel pretty good, Yes? SPEAKER 3: We had a little chat before we set off and I explained that this was for Queen and Country, and it just kind of lifted up its skirt and up it went, 4 High. Didn't even have to engage low ratio. SPEAKER 1: What's the saying, keep calm and carry on? SPEAKER 3: Stiff upper lip, dear chap. SPEAKER 1: It looks more curved from here. SPEAKER 3: Seriously though, that was really impressive. I didn't have to do-- I just kept a sensible space, I didn't really modulate the throttle. I just kind of let the car do the work. It was really good. SPEAKER 1: Yeah I'm kind of ashamed of our performances . Here I think we need to find a more challenging test. SPEAKER 2: Sway bars may be great for on-road use, but when you're off-roading you want a little more articulation. So we're going to demonstrate climbing the ziggurat of integrity with the sway bar connected and then later with it disconnected. Easy, easy. Look at that. We're already off. All right, backing up. The best part with the Jeep is, it's just a button push, a couple seconds, SPEAKER 1: OK, now straight. There you go. You're doing great. SPEAKER 2: Oh, God. Here we go. Automatic door closer, it's an option. The one area where the Wrangler is unassailed is approach angle, but the other two measurements it loses to the Defender. But when it comes to real hardcore use, well we've got some cool stuff like, first of all, this cool red tow hook here. It's beefy, but it's open. But of course, part of the approach angle is because it has this cool, optional $1,500 steel bumper that's really beefy with some red hooks popping out the top, and it is really strong. It will take my COVID weight just fine. Yeah. I think I want one now. SPEAKER 1: The 4Runner may not have fancy disconnecting sway bars-- at least this TRD Pro doesn't-- but crawl control has not let me down yet. Don't fail me now. That feels kind of precarious. Did I get to the same step as the Jeep? Can I actually get out? Don't do this at home kids. That's fairly impressive considering no disconnecting sway bars, and the lack of clearances the 4Runner actually has on paper, in terms of specs, this has the lowest approach and departure angles of the Wrangler and the Defender. Also it has these massive sidesteps which really limit breakover clearance. We've scraped these a number of times already. Also, if you notice, there's about three or four inches of nothing between my rear tire and the ground. If you remember from the Wrangler, that rear tire was still in the ground, so this has less articulation even though it was able to get to the same step. SPEAKER 3: So now it's the Defender's turn for the-- what are you calling it again? SPEAKER 1 AND SPEAKER 2: The ziggurat of integrity! SPEAKER 1: The Ziggurat of integrity. I've put it into rock crawl mode because we're crawling rocks. And now my little party piece-- wait for this-- here we go. Up we come, sonny. Off-road height selected. Look at that. Now, in theory at least, they should be a tough test for the Defender because, with its independent suspension, it may not have the articulation of the Wrangler, but let's find out. So here we go. Gently does it. SPEAKER 1 AND SPEAKER 2: [LAUGHTER] SPEAKER 3: How are we looking, gentlemen? I can see from my little gadget inside I'm currently at 18 degrees. I believe this will go to 45, so we're well within the vehicle's capability. I think we can go a bit higher. My, God, this is when you feel the weight of the doors. Excuse me, I don't want to destroy the microphone. I just don't want to drop this on my leg. SPEAKER 1: If only you had a sidestep. SPEAKER 3: Carlos, I'm six foot four, I don't need a sidestep. SPEAKER 1: No. No. SPEAKER 3: So, despite the absence of trick anti-sway bar switch off gadgets, you can still see it's pretty impressive. We've reached the same step as both a Wrangler and the 4Runner. Interesting in the back, it has picked up a left wheel-- which the Wrangler didn't-- so maybe the articulation isn't quite as good. But if you journey around the other side, let's play the cutaway you can actually see there's less compression there than there was in the other vehicles. It's really just operating a different kind of suspension system. One other thing that's really impressed me, Land Rover says that this is structurally the most rigid vehicle they've ever produced. And look, [CHUCKLE] even at this angle, you can still open the rear door. I can just about shut it again as well. What is much less impressive though, is the fact that you haven't got readily accessible recovery hoops as you have on the other two vehicles. So then you're going to have to improvise with towing hooks or suspension parts, which really isn't cool. Maybe it doesn't think its customers will push it that hard. Either way, be a nice to have. Come on Baron, Baron VonBronco. SPEAKER 1: After performing our tests we then just played around a bit. Let's give an overall opinion of each of these SUVs. Let's talk about the 4Runner's overall off-road performance as I travel through this frame twister course. Ultimately this thing was able to do everything we subjected to all three vehicles. It was able to do all the tasks. Now, you could argue that we didn't do the most extreme off-road testing in the world. Unfortunately, there is an infinite number of ways we could have made this more challenging, but for the off-road tasks that we did find, the obstacles that we did find, this performed pretty admirably considering the deficits it has. This doesn't have the most clearance of the group. It doesn't have the most power. It's got the most archaic transmission, and yet it could do everything we basically asked from it. I had to lean on all the electronic controls to get there, but fortunately those controls are available. And if you want to do more with your 4Runner, well, hey, guess what? There's the aftermarket. You can put on bigger wheels and tires, and beefier shocks, and all that stuff is possible. That's frankly the way you should go. Overall the 4Runner shows its age off-road, but is still able to do all the stuff we would hope it could. SPEAKER 2: As a surprise to no one, the Wrangler does exceptionally well off-road, duh. What was the surprise, though, was how well the Defender did. But there's something about this Wrangler that really kind of got a hold of me, and that's this analog version of the other two. I have these big chunky levers and buttons and stuff to mess with that is all manual. You don't really rely on any computers to help you out versus the others which feel almost like a video game. A lot of it's done for you especially with the crawl mode on the 4Runner that Carlos is relying on so much. With this I really barely just got into its potential. SPEAKER 3: I think it's obvious by now that we are hugely impressed by the Defender's off-road ability. There was always going to this question of this car, is it a real Defender? And what people mean by that is, does it have the off-road chops? And I think the answer is a resounding yes. And it also makes everything very easy. Even if you're a novice, it's very smooth. All the electronics and sophistication mean you can tackle huge obstacles even if you're not massively experienced off-road. What counts against it? Well, all those electronics, all that technology. If this does break down in the boonies then you're not going to fix it with a spanner and a belt strap like you might have done the original. The other thing is you're not going to have the big aftermarket support that you have with a Wrangler and the 4Runner. So if you are a hobbyist who likes to modify your vehicle, then it's not so easy. I really hope that market develops because this vehicle deserves it. Believe me, this is a proper off-roader. It's really good. SPEAKER 1: This comparison has come to an end which is unfortunate because we've had a lot of fun with these three cars. What have we learned? Well, let's start with the 4Runner. This is a trusty, dependable rig that you really don't have to think about too much when you're driving it, which is nice. It may not be able to reach the same off-road extremes as these other two, but it can get most of the way there. Plus, it's pretty nice to drive on the road, especially thanks to the additional cargo space it has that helps with the day to day SUV stuff, just never mind that five speed automatic transmission. Overall, this is a much more palatable vehicle as the $40,000 TRD off-road instead of this $52,000 TRD Pro. SPEAKER 3: There's no question that has like an old school charm about it. For me it just feels like it's a gearbox and an engine short of actually still being really desirable despite being 10 years old. SPEAKER 1: And also cool looking car here. My vote. SPEAKER 3: Especially in the green. SPEAKER 2: Meanwhile, we have the seasoned veteran here that can go anywhere, do anything, and Yeah, there's some payback for that. It's-- SPEAKER 3: Ride quality. SPEAKER 1: Steering. Noise in the cabin, cabin space-- SPEAKER 3: Especially in the rear and the front SPEAKER 1: Yes. SPEAKER 2: But if you're not fragile, it's a really good choice. I mean it starting to sway me over. I might actually start thinking about one of these. SPEAKER 3: Great for the hobbyist. SPEAKER 2: Unlimited choices for aftermarket customization, whatever you want. SPEAKER 3: That's true, but I think we've all been genuinely surprised-- I think that's fair-- by just how good the new Defender is. SPEAKER 1: Shocked. SPEAKER 3: On-road, by far and away the best car here. Off-Road, super smooth, super capable, made everything feel really easy. It just took it in stride everything that we threw at it. SPEAKER 2: Went anywhere the Jeep did. SPEAKER 3: And it has a bigger interior space as well than the Jeep. It's a better family-- in fact it crosses that bridge between 4x4 and SUV really well. On the downside, it is heavily reliant on electronics if you're heading off into the wilderness. And, of course, it is more expensive. If you want one with all the off-road hardware you're going to be paying around $55,000 at least. It's about 15% more than the equivalent Wrangler. But we think, even that price, it's still pretty good value for what it does. But, of course, this is the eliminator for the main event. This whole 4x4 thing is not a three horse race. SPEAKER 1: Poor Bronco. SPEAKER 3: Poor Bronco. SPEAKER 1: And on that bombshell we'll stop ripping off Top Gear. SPEAKER 3: Think it's worth one more go? SPEAKER 1: OK. He's not going to land on his toes. SPEAKER 3: Maybe it's like a knife, where you can throw it straight from its nose. Shall we say one horse in the room? SPEAKER 1: This is not a three horse race. SPEAKER 3: No, that's good. I like that.