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Enterprise, UT Car Consumer Discussions

Re: I should look at the bright side... [Mr_Shiftright]

by jeffyscott on Tue Nov 18 09:17:20 PST 2008

Someone figured out that rather than blow 800 billion on a lot of dying enterprises that the GOV could cut us EACH a check for.....$40,000 bucks. Someone has very poor math skills. 20,000,000 X $40,000 = $800,000,000,000 ($800 billion), so who are the 20 million that will get the $40,000? In addition, there is no talk of a sum like that going to the auto manufacturers.

Let's inject...

by grbeck on Tue Nov 18 07:46:01 PST 2008

...some facts into the discussion, please. Not ALL of the Big Three are going to collapse simultaneously. These companies are in very different situations, even though the lazy media prefers to lump them together. Ford has the money to make a go of it until it brings new product - Fiesta, all-new Focus, restyled Taurus - to market within the next 18 or so months. The company has reduced production capacity to bring it in line with demand, and sold Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston-Martin, all of where were cash drains and distracting management from focusing on the core brands - Ford and Lincoln. Quality is on the upswing, too. General Motors is in dire condition. But a restructured GM is still a viable enterprise. Only problem is that a restructured GM would be a much smaller company, sized to serve about 15-18 percent of the market. The best solution would cause the buy-American crowd and Lou Dobbs to have a stroke. But if the government really wants to save GM, it should turn it over to a foreign company - preferably Toyota - and give said company carte blanche to make the changes necessary to right the ship. GM's current management has a mixed record at best. The quality is still uneven; the brands are still a mess, with too much badge engineering and overlap; it changes nameplates too often; and there isn't anything on the horizon that will really increase market share. The Volt is not going to be a money-maker, and the Cruze doesn't look any more exciting than the Cobalt. The Camaro is sharp, but one retro-styled pony car isn't going to save GM. The brutal truth is that Toyota has done a much better job of meeting the needs and desires of American consumers (check the sales figures and market share trends); its quality is still, as whole, superior to GM's quality; its marketing is far superior; and its brands have essentially displaced comparable GM brands in the hearts and minds of customers. Toyota is the new Chevrolet, while Lexus has far more prestige than Cadillac among the younger, more affluent customers who will matter in the coming years. With a restructured GM, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer and Saab would go away. Buick and GMC would be combined into one division - call it LaSalle - and share platforms with Chevrolet at the lower end (although no economy Buicks, or LaSalles, please) and Cadillac at the near-luxury end. Chevrolet and Cadillac would be GM's big guns. The Jobs Bank would go away, and UAW members would accept work rules the same as those at the transplant operations. If the government is going to inject any money into GM, use it to fund the UAW VEBA. Most of upper management needs to go, too. Keep Bob Lutz for continuity. If GM needs anything, it is culture change. The world no longer revolves around GM, but I get the impression that GM management and the UAW haven't quite figured this out yet. Second, "good enough" isn't good enough anymore. But the last thing we, the taxpayers, need is for GM to receive aid that only postpones the inevitable, necessary restructuring. If we give GM money now - the way GM and the UAW want us to do it - prepare GM to beg for another cash infusion in about 6-12 months. As for Chrysler - it's toast. Cerberus has suspended new vehicle development, leaving the company basically dead. At this point, the best thing that could happen is that foreign companies buy up the remaining valuable parts of Chrysler - Jeep, the minivans, the Dodge Ram and maybe the LX cars. The rest is worthless. And the collapse of one of these companies will not bring about the next Great Depression. If Chrysler collapses, for example, Ford will pick up the slack, especially in rural areas. There will still be a vibrant domestic automobile industry. People seem to miss that Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Hyundai are expanding their presence here, building vehicles that were designed HERE with American tastes in mind. Their footprint in American will only increase. And the collapse of one of the Big Three will have very little effect on areas outside of their operations. There won't be marauding bands of unemployed auto workers in southcentral Pennsylvania if GM or Chrysler collapses. Nor will there be Unemployed Auto Workers Gone Wild in San Francisco, Dallas, Orlando, Seattle, Boston, etc. Sorry, but the Big Three aren't that big anymore. It's not 1965 anymore...and let's not quote hysterical press releases from biased, industry-funded sources to "prove" otherwise.

Re: I should look at the bright side... [cooterbfd]

by Mr_Shiftright on Mon Nov 17 17:37:52 PST 2008

Someone figured out that rather than blow 800 billion on a lot of dying enterprises that the GOV could cut us EACH a check for.....$40,000 bucks. Whaddya think? The Big Three could end up having a great Spring resurgence! I'd buy a car with some of that, sure thing. $40K would sit real nice with me right now. :)

Could this be a moral issue?

by bpraxis on Mon Nov 17 08:51:16 PST 2008

Some might say that it is immoral to steal money from the taxpayer and reward a failing enterprise. The market place punishes bad decisions. Socialism punishes hard work, thrift and entrepreneurship. Some might say that the economic resources will be reallocated to their most effective use if we let the market work.

Re: No bailout without addressing the UAW [rockylee]

by grbeck on Thu Nov 13 07:25:58 PST 2008

rockylee: Well at least these hacks are doing something to save good paying jobs !!! Are those hacks telling GM to build better products, close down divisions and bring wage and benefit levels into line with the transplant operations? Sorry, but those hacks need to learn that jobs exist to make products that people want. If people don't want the products, there is no reason for the job - or company - to exist. As hard as it may be to accept, car companies are for-profit enterprises that exist to make products that people want, and thereby earn a profit for shareholders. They are not social welfare agencies for blue- and white-collar employees. rockylee: Well Europe and Japan, discourage foreign investment !!! Which is why GM completely owns Opel of Germany and Vauxhall of Great Britain, and Ford has a wholly owned subsidiary based in Germany and Great Britain. And why Saab is owned by GM, and Volvo is owned by Ford. And why GM has owned stakes in Suzuki and Subaru, and Ford still owns a controlling interest in Mazda. rockylee: Try importing a car into China !!! A red herring. No Chinese-made cars are imported into the U.S. and won't be for another 10-15 years. rockylee: Superior to what ??? To the minds of the sheep who read Pol Pot Reports ??? Ostriches who stick their head in the sand regarding Consumer Reports test results have absolutely zero credibility. Lots of people read the magazine; they are are all potential customers. (And for the record, more than a few independent mechanics I've spoken to all agree that Consumer Reports results are largely accurate.) Lots of us are sick of the arrogant Detroit attitude that customers are obligated to ignore all criticisms of Big Three vehicles because they "owe" something to the UAW, or Big Three management. The recent action of Alan Mullaly of Ford is much more productive - he brought his top engineers to the magazine's facilities and forced them to listen as Consumer Reports staff critiqued Ford's cars. rockylee: Yeah you are right because the Japanese, have purchased the automobile media outlets !!! The Japanese auto makers have bought up EVERY media outlet, and every organization that tests vehicles? Sorry, but you are clutching at straws. This is what desperate people whose world is collapsing around them believe, because the truth hurts too much. rockylee: The statistics show quite the opposite of what you are saying. Are going to try to convince me that a Camry is made better than a Malibu ???? You can't be serious ??? When the long-term reliability results from surveys conducted by Consumer Reports or Truedelta.com show proof of this, let me know. I want long-term results, not results measuring the first 90 days of ownership. rockylee: You know beter than that but that is the perception folks have. As imidazol97, has pointed out on numerous occassions that GM, cars have as few problems as Toyota's !!! Sorry, but attempting to extrapolate reliability based on Edmunds.com postings is a faulty method for a variety of reasons, and we've pointed this out numerous times. rockylee: What's frightening is we have so many ignorant people in this country. They let one issue consume their way of thinking even if it effects their wallet and way of life !!! With those two sentences, you've neatly summed up the main problems with your outlook on life. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that too many UAW members and GM management personnel share these views.

Re: GM likely to survive, bonds a "buy" says J.P. Morgan [kernick]

by steve_ on Tue Nov 11 10:31:02 PST 2008

I forget the numbers but seems like Tennessee gave VW about 500 million in inducements to build a plant in Chattanooga. Pennsylvania gave VW a bunch of bucks back in the 70's to build a plant and that one folded in the late 80's. Inducements and tax breaks were also given to Mercedes and Hyundai in Alabama, Nissan in Mississippi and who knows who else. Seems like you'll be walking if you don't buy products that have a smell of corporate welfare around them. Oh, the name of the industrial park where VW is going in Chattanooga? Enterprise South Maybe you can email them and suggest they stick "values" in there too. :D