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Freedom, OK Car Consumer Discussions

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by euphonium on Wed Nov 12 21:01:28 PST 2008

"Why are so many other developed nations able to handle 75-80, but not Americans? And those numerous nations are.............. Why are those who preach freedom and liberty the ones who become pseudo-authoritarians when it comes to speed limits, and why do said people who completely lack credentials believe they can judge driving ability? Experience under all conditions enable discernment of selfish driving styles.

Ahh...

by iluvmysephia1 on Sat Nov 15 11:36:48 PST 2008

but isn't that the auto industry for you? I mean, these vehicles are expensive creations and always have been. I'm talking about individual ownership, that desire to have one when you're young. But don't yet have much money. That's where they cause so much anxiety. And when they reach the "feed me with parts" stage, things really get interesting. A lot of people have been hurt badly by them, yet, look at the wonderful freedom they provide you with. Not a right to have a car, it's a responsibility, eh? Isn't that how the lecture to the 16 year old kid goes down...pretty much? :D

Re: comfortable speeds of 75-80 mph [euphonium]

by fintail on Wed Nov 12 19:38:36 PST 2008

Dawdling down a wide open road at a coerced unnaturally low speed is not a way to reduce tension :sick: Why are so many other developed nations able to handle 75-80, but not Americans? Why are those who preach freedom and liberty the ones who become pseudo-authoritarians when it comes to speed limits, and why do said people who completely lack credentials believe they can judge driving ability? :lemon:

Bailing out the big 3 (especially GM)

by dill on Wed Nov 12 10:04:04 PST 2008

There has been no one I have ever come across that has been as big a supporter of the American car industry or GM than me I have ever come across. That being said, I am completely against any money going to the big 3 under any circumstances. Chrysler is not worthy of getting money because they have become a bit player on the global scene. Their models generally speaking are of marhinal quality versus that of GM and Ford. If you don't believe me look at JD Powers and Associates quality surveys over the last 20 years. Although Chrysler has made marked improvement in their quality ovet this period, they are still generally speaking behind Ford and GM. I realize part of Chryslers present problems are brought about by the wicked step child perception Mercedes viewed Chrysler. Mercedes looked at Chrysler as a cash cow in the early days of their relationship, than saddled Chrysler with big inefficient engines, and ugly car bodies without upgrading their manufacturing processes to compete effectively with the other Detroit offerings and the offerings in markets around the world. Also Chrysler was and is presently hampered by being tied at the hip to Mercedes as a major supplier. This will hurt Chryslers potential for survival to a great extent because of Mercedes over priced parts and other components for the next number of years of this exclusive arrangement Mercedes put together in spinning off Chrysler. Ford and GM are different from Chrysler in the following ways. Both of these companies actually have a much better potential for survival. I would not bail these companies out. Why? Well, it comes down to the fact that the big 3's legacy costs are so ridiculously expensive that GM and Ford can't sell a car on the same even playing field as Toyota or Honda can. If GM and Ford were to file for bankruptcy than all the legacy costs and unions are busted. If you bust the unions, than they are on the same footing as Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Mercedes, and BMW here in the US. GM and Ford will be able to save the roughly $2,000 per car wasted on these legacy costs and put some of that money back into the research and development of their products. It will be only a matter of time before they would be making even better quality cars than they are at present (which by the way very very good overall.) I fully understand that the Big 3 brought this on themselves. I will admit this point to an extent but you the reader of this have to realize that the unions were in their own way greedy of taking the opportunity put at their feet to an extreme extent. If the unions were smart and looked at the long term viability of their demands they would have (and probably did) realize that the extremely generous benefits couldn't be sustained with the ever increasing world competition within the car market. This motivation to be as much of a parasite on the backs of the Big 3 was especially true after the Arab Oil Embargo of the early 1970's and the price shock of oil prices in the late 70's. Even if the Big 3 automotive boards were incompetent and in their own right willing accomplises the UAW should have realized that things were not sustainable over the decades ahead and the Big 3 would be in peril to the point of killing the UAW itself. I give Walter Reuther and Doug Frasier a whole lot of credit for instituting programs and benefit packages that were great for the unions at first, but now that UAW membership is about 10% of the US workforce, it hasn't been the utopian world both these leaders worked so hard to implement. If the Big 3 were to get money from Congress they would have to establish policies and provisions politicians in Washington (primarily Democrat) politicians want. One of the biggest parts of a potential bailout that Washington wants to be a part of, is for Washington to control the Big 3's making of small fuel efficent cars. Washington screws everything up. Social security, Fannie and Freddie you name it. Government on all levels tries to legislate everything including the use of oils that contain trans fats. Freedom of choice is being assulted on a daily basis. If I want to buy a Hummer, I can at present but who knows whether I'll be able to 10-20 years from now, and even if I can they will tax that vehicle like crazy thereby legislating behavior. This applies to many different things. A toilet that was the standard 20+ years ago that could flush 3 gallons of water everytime its flushed now can't be purchased as brand new anymore. Now you have to buy a a smaller capacity flushing unit that flushes less water thereby saving water. Why not sell a lower capacity toilet along side the normal capacity unit and let the market decide. It might sound trivial folks, but it demonstrates my point exactly. Let industry come up with solutions to market problems, and changing conditions. That is much better than forcing businesses through government intervention fix the problem(s). If gas goes to $10 a gallon auto companies will build the right cars for the market if they don't they will be out of business. Government shouldn't legislate peoples behavior, government should work on making markets available to businesses and establishing rules and regulations that promote business growth. By taxing a type of car because "its considered a gas guzzler in the eyes of some people" doesn't promote the sale of that vehicle. The people are smarter than the government is aware.

Re: No bailout without addressing the UAW [rockylee]

by gagrice on Thu Nov 13 07:44:30 PST 2008

I do think we union members are a cut above the rest That is a nice thought. Just not realistic. I always felt good about our bargaining unit when we were able to police the slackers. That has nothing to do with the intelligence of the workforce. Much of it has to do with pure luck. I was lucky to get that call from RCA in 1970 offering to take me to Alaska and give me a job. Sure I had a decent job with Pacific Telephone at the time. I was ready for a change and was lucky enough to be offered the job. RCA encouraged us to have a Union. They did not want to deal with over a 1000 people on an individual basis. RCA Global was Teamster. So we ended up Teamster. It had nothing to do with all of us being any better than anyone else. In fact most of our technicians came from out of the SE. They had the experience on the Telco Equipment we were installing to give AK long distance service. your boss can't tap you on the shoulder when you are older and say your out of here without giving a reason One of the important benefits of Unions. Seniority is top importance. As long as the person is able to do the job he should not be threatened by personality issues that many times come into play. I am sure I have made a few bosses want to fire me. Though when I quit to try farming, it only took two days to get my job back with a call to my old boss. I have a hard time talking to you on these issues because as a union supporter it bothers me that you are a globalist, pseudo-capitalist !! I am a realist and you an idealist. We live in a global community. No amount of whining and crying will change that. I came to that realization in the 1970s. It may take you a while. NOTHING is going to change with a different President. They are figure heads. Obama wants to be king and he can be that as long as he does not step on the toes that put him there. And that was not the voters. It was the people that gave him nearly a billion dollars to run his WORLD WIDE campaign. You think he is not thinking globally? I would expect a GM factory in Kenya before another one gets built in Michigan. Remember he made promises all over the World. Do you think he is going to crap on any of those countries. The teamsters I know think a lot more like me than you !!! They are very pro-american, and think we need to rid ourselves of all this shoddy lead tainted goods we import from those commies !!! You need to follow the news more. We are making poker chips in the USA with up to 50% lead paint. Don't ever let a child play with poker chips. some cores were found to be as high as 50 percent lead, answering any questions as to how a clay chip hides its weight. Lead poker chips I never though of myself as having a silver spoon compared to most kids growing up You were privileged compared to myself and most people I was raised with. I have a lot more than my parents had. Both my mother and stepfather died over the last 10 years, with no money. I paid to bury both. My biological father the lifelong Democrat had plenty. Which he did not share with his first two children and ex-wife, my mother. No child support from that dyed in the wool Democrat tool & dye maker. I was raised by a Republican mother that supported us working in a sewing factory piece work. They were not Union during the war. When the Unions came in they ruined the job for the fast seamstresses. That was about the time my mom met my stepfather and left the sewing factories. I was raised to despise how Unions stole personal responsibility and freedom from the workers. My Uncles that helped support us were both Union Millwrights during the war. They also complained about the poor work ethics of the Union carpenters and millwrights. So you have been fed a lot of bull in your life when it comes to the REAL TRUTH about Unions. The UAW may have been great for your family. Was it great for the rest of the USA? Now that you want US to bail out your beloved GM. You want US to embrace the UAW that is part of the reason GM is in dire straits. Thinking ill of GM and the UAW is not Un-American. The UAW is a big part of why jobs have gone to Mexico, China & Canada. Believing you should be paid when you do not work is UN-AMERICAN. but one would think that after 8 years of that program My Union job and 401K did better during this administration until the Democrats wormed their way into control of Congress. Look at the mess the 110th Congress has made. I did not agree with Bush on most things where he was trying to appease the Democrats. Amnesty was a big one. I am taking a wait and see on the Obama Presidency. If the stock market reaction to his getting elected is any indicator. We are in DEEP DOO DOO.. PS The Union has never gotten me a job. I got my jobs and then joined the Union.

Re: What will Obama do about 55 [steve_]

by fintail on Mon Nov 10 10:56:37 PST 2008

60 is less than most first world nations on that list, even nations like France and Denmark where many wouldn't expect higher speed driving. If an Orwellian nanny-state like England can have faster highways, why can't a land that basks in the claim of freedom and liberty?