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Re: There are risks and there are RISKS [oac]

by merc1 on Mon Jun 19 22:40:28 PDT 2006

And these are just in NA alone.... By the time you add the variants in Europe, Middle East and Asia, you'd have to multiply each model line by a factor of 2 !!! Burger King-way sure looks like it, but it ain't a way to improve brand image and marqueness, all IMO !!! Yet it works. See this is where knowing about Mercedes comes in at. They've always had a lot of different models, more than either BMW or Audi, only recently did really expand into totally new segments. A little FYI here some of those cars are like the S-Class and CL have always been there, just before the "CL" was just the S-Class Coupe, which is really what it still is. Why would you list the SLR there? Surely a 450K, 612hp supercar isn't hurting their image and you certainly don't see one on every corner. The only new models there are the R and GL and CLS and maybe the SLK having come out in 1997. The only one there that is questionable is the R-Class, which has done a belly flop in the market. The rest have done nothing but "shore up" MB's image not hurt it. The CLS has opened up a new segment that VW, Porsche, Aston-martin and others are now trying to come up with something similar. Again that is nothing but sheer prestige for Mercedes having done that. What the CLS has done for MB is no more different than what you claim the RX did for Lexus. Since BMW has an X3 and others like Audi, Infiniti, and Acura are going to join the small-lux SUV arena should Mercedes stay out of it? What I really want to know is how more models hurts Mercedes when Lexus is going to do the same thing? Aren't you guys always talking about all these Lexus models coming in the next few years? How is that any different? M

Tiers...

by merc1 on Sat Jun 10 15:55:34 PDT 2006

All this about where these brands rank has made for good debates both here and on the News and Views boards. While I do agree that Audi makes a hell of a HEL sedan, they aren't really a HELM brand at least in the U.S., IMO. Neither is Lexus in the grand scheme of things, because you can't just rule one market in sales and call yourself some type of world standard. Neither brand offers much out of the sedan catergories with any real pizzaz to it. Lexus is bascially all cooking sedans and SUVs and Audi save the S4 Cabriolet doesn't really offer anything different either. That said both Audi and Lexus realize this and are set to change this with the addition of mainly sports cars, coupes and hi-po versions of their regular cars - things that IMO make a true HELM, not just one sedan competes with MB and BMW at the top end. I think Audi will really have corrected this once they get a real coupe (like the CLK or 6-Series) to market along with the R8 and of course the RS4 and S8. The Tiers: You can debate where they rank within the tier, but that 1st Tier is comprised of: Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Aston-Martin, Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini and now Bugatti. Maybach is there on price, but not recognition obviously, Lambo has never matched Ferrari's road cars until now, but they still don't have any racing pull....like I said with each one of these you can debate their ranking within this tier all day long, but that these are the most prestigious names in the automotive business isn't really debatable. Whether it is price, hp, exclusivity, styling or just a plain old "wow" factor, this group produces the world's largest group of lust objects that even the most automotively ignorant person in captivity would lust after. Personally I would say that Ferrari is the world's most prestigous name for several reasons, but that is another story. Then you have again IMO, Tier 2 brands like Porsche, Mercedes and BMW in that order. On this board we tend to judge BMW and Mercedes by their S/7-Series sedans, but BMW and especially Mercedes are for more than just their sedans. The both compete (for better or worse in F1) and DTM, something like Germany's Nascar. Porsche is Germany's gold standard in both their cars and seemingly thier quaility (for the survey worshipers can't really knock Porsche on that either) alike. That and all their gleaming corporate achievements puts them as #1 in German hardware, IMO. Mercedes makes so many different toys for the rich, large coupes, medium sized coupes, large roadsters, small roadsters, 4-seat cabriolets, a military derived relic of an SUV, the SLR, and a hi-po version of nearly everything they build. This latter wide ranging practice is at odds with BMW which tends to only build M versions of select vehicles which brings me to the 3rd member of this class which make it arguable as to who is 2nd to Porsche, but their place in this tier is without doubt. BMW, intensely focused and since 2002 not afraid to make a decision or take a new and controversial path and much better run company than Mercedes is now, but not quite as well-run as Porsche. Tier 3 is comprised of what I call the up-n-coming brands, the brands to watch, or the ones that are trying to regain their former glory: Lexus, Audi, and Cadillac. The first is brand new, largely synthetic with zero heritage, but their market stides can't be overlooked, but there are no lust objects in the lineup, nothing to really get worked up over for the enthusiast, it appeals largely to the allways logical folks, nice, but boring. Lexus, having a good following in the sedan segments with one sedan that is an outstanding competitor to the Euros, now is set to work on the appeal factor with their upcoming rumored sports car and hi-po versions of certain sedans. The second is not new, but is just now coming into its own both here and especially in Europe. No longer content to play second fiddle to MB/BMW they're bursting at the seams with Motorsport accomplishments, new technology, and a model plan that looks to place them on equal footing with the other two German luxury car giants by matching them model for model and even going them one further, think R8. Audi is being championed by more and more enthusiasts that have given Audi the chance to prove their mettle. Arguably the one to watch the most out of Germany's big 3 luxury car makers. Arguably the best looking lineup (inside and out) of cars in the luxury car market. Then you have Cadillac. The former "Standard of the World" that was nearly obliterated by the Germans in the eighties and the Japanese in the nineties. Their new "V" series cars, say what you will about them, offer something no Japanese luxury namplate offers, real performance versions of their everyday cars complete with bespoke engines and styling and upgraded interiors. You have to admit that a 100K XLR-V would have been unthinkable just a few years ago, whether or not it is selling or not (though that is of some importance as to indicate whether or not the market has accepted that idea) it is there. Again, as with all the other Tiers here you can debate that Lexus is more prestigious than Audi in this country and that Audi is waist and body above Lexus everywhere else, or that Cadillac is the oldest etc. etc., but one thing is clear here...overall none of the names in this Tier match the names in Tier above it in overall status. No matter how rapidly that is changing it hasn't happened yet. Well after these you have Tier 4 brands: Infiniti, Acura, Volvo. These guys specialize in nice, even some segment leading entry-level products, but they quickly fall out of favor when moving up into the mid-size segment until recently with Infiniti. Acura just can't have it with the RL and Volvo's S8 really doesn't fit the bill in the mid-size segment either, though a very good car it just doesn't bring a big enough gun to the fight. None of them have a HEL sedan or any acceptance in that arena which relegates them to this class, IMO. Again it is debatable that Infiniti is more than Acura and some might say that Cadillac belongs here due to their miserable previous 20+ years, but I think you get the point. Acura can't do anything beyond nice entry-level cars and Infiniti has now been able to sell anything beyond the G35/I35 price bracket so Infiniti still takes a back seat to Lexus because Lexus is still the only Japanese brand able to sell a high-end sedan to high-end Euro sedan intenders. These guys just don't make it onto any shopping lists when people start spending serious money. M

Re: Why are so many inferior vehicles considered status symbols? [john_324]

by boaz47 on Tue Mar 21 07:17:50 PST 2006

It is as much like buying a Harley Sporster. You have the name and the image of a Hummer. Having been an off road person for more than a few years I can remember seeing my first Hummer out on the trail. Stock they could go a lot of places our tricked out Jeeps could. Yes they were big and they had a problem with tight places but ground clearance was very good for a stock vehicle. If someone had the spending cash they could do a lot worse than to get a Hummer for places like Johnson Valley California. After all they replaced the Jeep with the Hummer for the military. I happen to be into rock crawling and it is hard to beet a Jeep based vehicle in that arena unless you have a one of a kind hand built rig. At the very least they have tons of aftermarket upgrades for them. Someone has to define inferior in the context that the forum was started. It is pretty much like one poster said earlier if everyone had the same standard for a vehicle we might all be driving Camrys, Accords or Buicks. As far as Harley goes, it is the feel of machinery. You get the same feeling as one might get standing next to a Steam locomotive. It has a pulse when you ride it. It has absolutely nothing to do with practically. They may be too successful today as has been said. But if you don't understand why people buy Harleys rather than a Jap bike look at what the Jap bikes are trying to do with their street cruisers. They are trying to look and sound like a Harley. Many of us would love to have a old classic car. Most of us realize that they would be pretty expensive to drive as a commuter. But if someone can make a classic car with modern parts it would be like having your cake and eating it too. That is just a bit like having a Harley.

Re: With MB [logic1]

by merc1 on Sun Mar 27 13:58:31 PST 2005

No V-Series Cadillacs don't compete with non-AMG Mercedes, not even a fair comparo. Its one tuner car against another. Comparing the best Cadillac has to offer against less than the best Mercedes has in the performance arena sounds like typical GM excuses. You know like we have the biggest engine in the class (3800) yet its down on hp and torque compared to its rivals sort of thing. "However, now that we bring this up, the V Cadillacs all come in substantially - in the case of the XLR-V probably more than 45k - less than the AMGs." Well you get what you pay for. Ditto with M BMW. If you're talking the CTS-V, XLR-V, STS-V, they aren't a match for a M5/E55 or SL55 AMG. They should cost less. You can argue that Mercedes is losing the right to charge a premium based on reliability but the performance difference is clear. Cadillac needs a few more years before they start pricing like similar rivals. A mistake I think they've already made with the STS, especially the V8 version. M

Its Unanimous

by merc1 on Fri Mar 25 00:56:25 PST 2005

Yeah I have to say this thing is most unnatractive and shaped like a brick. I knew they were on that sort of styling kick looking at the 2005 JGC but gee moe netty this this thing looks awful. Too bad because they're dreaming if they think they'll sell 60-70K of these a year. I feel bad for Jeep because this is just the entry they need in the luxury SUV arena. M

no title

by merc1 on Wed Jan 26 23:33:34 PST 2005

That is very true. If the current RL goes 9 years like the previous one, they'll be right back where they started from. Acura is also limted by not having a proper rwd platform for a flagship vehicle. A re-cast or lengthened RL won't play in the S-Class/LS/A8/7-Series arena.   While I agree that Audi is in similar postion I think they have a better chance to grow once they get some more 2-door models and crossovers in the lineup, that and their styling which unlike Acura's does cause a reaction..whether good (A8) or bad (A6's grille). At least it is something to talk about, Acura's styling is still very much forgettable across to board, imo. Audis are too imo just as luxurious as any Mercedes, especially the A6 and A8, but they haven't matched BMW yet on the sport side. When they do it seems that they miss the right balance between ride and handling, per some recent roadtests of the A8 and new A6. I seem to read where the ride is either too soft of too hard.   Acura seems to be content with the 25-40K market with one 50K car. We could be talking about a "problem" that Acura doesn't feel they have or see a need to address. Just a thought.   M